The Jeju Crash
When Pilots Panic
From a pilot's perspective there is not a damn thing we can do if our plane is shot out of the sky. However, when there is a bird strike, that's a different story. This is when our training takes over. While a bird strike could be catastrophic at the wrong time, pilots should have the emotional stability and requisite training to fly the plane. In my opinion, these pilots panicked.
I have not seen footage of their first arrival. Were they configured for landing? I would assume so, therefore, on their miss-approach they brought up their gear and flaps for the go-around. Meaning they had hydraulics to do so. A flock of birds could have impacted their hydraulics, yes. But if so, that did not force them to fly at full speed without flaps and belly the aircraft into a landing, ultimately hitting a wall at full speed.
On a missed approach, if they lost an engine and needed the performance, they would have brought the gear up and some flaps. They did not have to bring up all the flaps and put the plane into a clean configuration. Furthermore, if hydraulics were a concern the prudent thing would have been to leave some of the flaps out in anticipation of alternate flap extension.
What should have happened if the plane was impacted by birds, a calm declaration to the tower such as, "Tower, Jeju 7C2216 had a bird strike. We lost our engine. We have a hydraulic issue. We would like to hold close to the runway to run our checklists."
The Boeing 737 has engine driven hydraulic pumps, but also electric hydraulic pumps. The Boeing 737 even has an alternate gear extension system. Any pilot in this situation should hold, meaning they fly circles in the sky, and see what systems they have available, run checklists, and determine if there is enough runway length to land at their given weight. At the very least make their plane as light as possible before they attempted to land on a marginally sufficient runway, if that was their only option. These pilots took none of these actions
The pilots repeatedly called "May Day" and landed, with multiple warnings screaming in their flight deck because of the the lack of flaps and gear at a low altitude. They ignored the warnings and pressed on, without knowledge or understanding that their actions would result in death. Clean, short runway, they were fast.
A fight or flight response is not often mentioned with piloting, but this is a perfect example that pilots need to keep flying the plane. To fight, would mean to do what is necessary to attack the problem. The flight response is to run. In this case these pilots felt running toward the safety of the ground was their best option. Were they aware of the redundant aircraft systems? Did they train for bird strikes? Did they lack understanding and therefore lacked confidence? Did they understand the inability to stop on the runway? Did they realize what they were about to do, would result in death? I suspect not. And becasue of that lack of understanding 179 people died.
I believe with the new generation of pilots worldwide, without experience, and substandard training, that we might see similar situations in the future. Many think this is a foreign issue, not to be found in the US, but they would be wrong. As our highly experienced pilots are forced to retire at the age of 65, and are replaced with the new generation of pilots without experience, plugged into a training foot print to push them out as quickly as possible, I fear we will be seeing more accidents.
There have been far too many accidents and incidents in 2024. By the grace of God have not manifested into such a catastrophe as this. Our industry is not getting safer, but going the wrong direction. Two solutions that could help mitigate the risk are as follows:
- Retain experienced pilots. Extend the pilot retirement age to 67.
- Improve pilot training to ensure the highest level of understanding and ability.
What do you think the solutions should be?
DO NOT RUSH!
Happy New Year
And health and Happiness to you and your family!
There are families who will not have a happy new year as a result of this needless crash. What will it take for airlines and regulatory agencies alike to do the right thing and prevent such loss? I'm not sure. I've seen the worst of training and violations with no accountability, so I wonder what will it take?
May all your flights be safe in 2025
PS: I do not blame the pilots. They are a product of their environment. The company is responsible for putting them in the air ill prepared.
Karlene K Petitt
PhD. MBA. MHS.
A350, B777, A330, B747-400, B747-200, B767, B757, B737, B727
A350, B777, A330, B747-400, B747-200, B767, B757, B737, B727
Although not all details are clear and a final verdict about what Pilots did or should have done will take a while, it looks I have to agree with you. Rushed approach with clean aircraft, no good plan, no gear, landing halfway with high speed and maybe tailwind.
ReplyDeleteMartin Leeuwis capt 737 for 25 years
Martin, I too hate to speak out too soon, but felt compelled because this is something that should not be delayed until the final verdict. The message to all is "Do NOT rush!" Know your plane. Know your systems. Keep flying. Thank you for your thoughts.
DeleteWith all those acronyms next to your name, I figured you'd know well enough not to speculate on a recent mishap. It's clear you know absolutely nothing about what these pilots were up against. You're just twisting this scenario to meet your selfish desires. As if a 67 year old pilot would have handled this situation better.
ReplyDeleteWhy is everyone afraid to speculate? This creates discussion. Yes, I suspect a 67 year old pilot with experience would do better. I know one captain who flew the plane for 25 years asserted as much.
DeleteYou’re rushing to some conclusions pretty quickly here
ReplyDeletePerhaps, But we'll see. The message is... "don't rush" And if someone reads this and they decide to do something other than landing on a short runway without flaps and gear, and decide to hold and work through the problem... then maybe it was worth speaking earlier instead of waiting months for the analysis.
DeleteThe admonishment "don't rush" could just as well be applied to your essay here. There is not yet enough known to come to such sweeping and damning conclusions. There evidence neither engine was working properly upon landing (One video shows the right engine ingesting birds with subsequent compressor stalls, and another video does not show a thermal plume from the left engine during the landing possibly indicating it was not operating). If the second engine failure was not pilot induced, then what we saw here may have been a heroic attempt to return to the field with little to no available thrust. This might explain a pilot's decision to not extend gear or flaps. This is not a scenario that any airline pilot trains for even after the Miracle on the Hudson.
ReplyDeleteThis is my assumption and opinion. I did not rush, but have been thinking about every scenario possible with that plane, and the configuration since it happened. More so, I'm not sure they could have had a bird strike on the missed approach that took out both their engines and killed their hydraulics, but they were still able to clean up the plane, fly the pattern and return at such excessive speeds. Even Captain Sullenberger who lost two engines had time to plan, discuss and talk to ATC. And why aren't we training for such failures? The event of birdstrikes is real. Not until after the AF447 crash did we train for stalls in the Airbus, despite a known problem. Whey do we have to kill people first? There in lays the problem. However, at Evergreen, ahh... 35 years ago we trained for a catastrophic failure and taught pilots how to do a 90/270 to get back to the runway most expediently. Regardless, my assumptions have not killed 179 people, but perhaps if someone reads this and thinks about what if... they might make better decisions. It's about talking about problems, not sweeping them under the rug. This might be a good video for you to watch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igdTYvxFvSs&t=12s
DeleteKarlene, your anonymous naysayer is out of line. He (or she) is not qualified to attack your take of the incident. 40 years of pilot experience and a Phd in Airline Safety Culture vs Anonymous who hides behind anonymity to throw plastic darts.
ReplyDeleteThank you. I find the anonymity of the outspoken and attacking interesting. They cannot put their names to their comments.
Delete"Anonymous" was not so anonymous as he included his name and experience at the end of his initial post: "Martin Leeuwis Capt 737 for 25 years. Best case, Karlene's essay helps prevent a similar incident in the future, worst case, she's wrong and wrongfully accused a couple of pilots who are now dead. Seems like the upside outweighs the downside IMO. PS - It's EASIER to post here as "Anonymous" than to put in your name...
ReplyDeleteJoe, I do not think the comment on anonymous was regarding the one with the name attached.
DeletePS - I assume the first four "Anonymous" postings above are from Captain Leeuwis, and if so, the only truly anonymous posting is the fifth guy saying Leeuwis was out of line and that Leeuwis was hiding behind anonymity ... ironic.
ReplyDeleteJoe, below might have been the comment that anonymous was about. I published it, then deleted it because, we don't need abuse on social media. We should be able to have adult discussions even if we don't like another's opinion. Simple attacks are not allowed. But... on second thought, I do have a comment for the anonymous person who wrote this statement ...
Delete“Jesus Christ you’re a fucking Ghoul. Those bodies aren’t cold yet and you’re pushing your bullshit. For a professional aviator to pump out this garbage with zero evidence makes me question your mental health.”
I now wonder if my statement that pilots should have emotional stability hit a chord with him, as clearly the author lacks self control. I also pray that he does not respond this way when his first officer voices her opinion during a flight.
Had he signed his name, chances are the FAA may look into his mental health. Could you imagine flying with this guy? Frightening. This is why these guys hide.
Thanks Karlene for the insight. Yes, something clearly set him (or her?) off, provoking an excessively angry reaction to say the least. "Lacks self control" is stating it mildly. I hope to God he/she is not a pilot.
DeleteHappy New Year Karlene! Hope you and yours are well.
ReplyDeleteHave you considered why there are no exterior lights on landing (anti collision) and why the ADS-B ceased to report? This could point to no engine or APU generators, and on stand by bus.
I have lots of questions this early post accident.
Prayers for the families and loved ones of those who perished and the surviving crew. And the first responders.
Happy New year Linda! I had not noticed either, but I recently listened to another analysis, who was on the same wave length and said they may have panicked and shut down the wrong engine... that might cause some of those problems. Thankfully Boeing will be in this and we might get to hear what happened, if they want to defend their plane. Otherwise, I don't know the politics if Korea can retain the voice recorder. Do you? We'll see what happens. Thanks for your thoughts!
DeleteWe have video of the right engine taking birds. As to the status of the other engine, there's an old saying that goes "The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." We should not assume the left engine was not impacted by bird strikes because the actual event was not caught on video (Yes, it could also have been shut down accidentally, but that just doesn't seem to fit the timeline). The engines could have held on long enough to retract flaps and gear, however, there are numerous indications the left engine was not running on landing and the right engine was running but damaged. Given the entire episode from the initial "mayday" to landing was about 3 minutes, it has more the feel of a improvised response to an situation no one really expects or trains for. I think there is enough here for valuable discussions without assuming the crew "panicked".
ReplyDeleteOh... I love the way you speculated what could have happened. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
DeleteKarlene- I am very sorry for all the hateful comments you have had to endure. You are not selfish. You are not pushing an agenda. You are doing the right thing by analyzing this accident. You have earned the right to make such statements. Keep up the good work!
ReplyDeleteDennis, Thank you very much! This is much appreciated. I find it amazing that people don't discuss the issue, but instead attack opinions. Thank you so much!! And a very Happy New Year!!
Delete65 is already too old.
ReplyDeleteYe, for some. For other 55 is too old. For others maybe 70. I just read this response to my house guest, he says, "I don't want anyone under 50"... So there you have it, lots of opinion.
DeleteKarlene, you put into print every single thing I was thinking after watching just a couple of the videos. I predicted on day 2, this could very well be the end of this airline. Unless they can pull of what Korean Air did over 20 years ago, to actually train properly. This is tragic. I pray for the families, and know that the boxes from the plane will answer 98% or more of the questions. And yes, 67 or even 70, is an excellent and obvious answer. Some people don’t seem to realize or understand the importance of good check rides and FAA physicals. Those few anonymous posters, just don’t understand the obvious details in this tragic crash.
ReplyDeleteDavid, Thank you for your cogent reply. The only objection for the age 67 or 70 are the young pilots wanting the old guys out of their way for seniority. But what those young pilots are missing is the valuable experience they could gain from their experience. Not all are stellar, as the same with the youth of today, but those who have experience and exceptional aviators are worth their weight in gold. You hit it... physicals and check rides will determine their fitness and performance level. And for those posting anonymously, and don't have the bandwidth to engage in meaningful discussion, or simply do not have an opinion and waiting for someone to tell them, more than likely do not understand the history of these investigations and the litigation involved in determining the cause. I would challenge everyone who wants to wait for what the "experts" say, to actually read an accident investigation, look at the facts, and then what the experts say happened. Often, they oppose each other. When I can find a moment, I might just post one those I have read. Now the real fun comes when you get death threats for posting your opinion as the one that follows. That's special. Thanks for your thoughts and reminder about the check rides.
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ReplyDeleteI suppose this is a death threat?
DeleteSick people. No place or room for haters. I wouldn’t publish their comments.
DeleteI am appalled by some of the comments. Captain Petitt has expressed her opinions and your opinion might be different but that does not give anyone the right to attack her or possibly post a death threat. I think that I can speak for a majority of professional pilots, we all have a lot of questions on how this accident could have happened. When I say professional pilot, I mean ANY pilot who flies his or her aircraft safely with out hurrying or cutting corners. I don't care if you are a student pilot or an astronaut, how you handle yourself in the air or on the ground determines if you are a professional or not. Attacking Captain Petitt is not professional. May God bless the families of those affected by this awful tragedy.
ReplyDeleteThank you for the comment Roger. Appreciate it from one of the true professionals!
DeleteLets make another anonymous post to address the “anti speculation political correctness” group - you “experts” have to start realising that many mishaps are averted not because of the tremendous skills of pilots but due to extreme redundancy of todays flight control systems and computers. There are only two possibilities that could have happened in Korea: Either a loss of thrust on both engines or the wrong engine has been shut down. The probability that both engines have been damaged is there yes but from what i can see from available footage is damage to the right engine and the aircraft landing with the right reverser open and the left closed. One could assume that the right engine was operating and the left shutdown. Now here is my “hypothesis” of what happened: Bird strike on the right engine then applying go around thrust on the damaged engine -> engine damage. What follows are hastily performed memory items that should have been buried by the manufacturer a long time ago. You don’t need memory items for engine failures. Fly it up there safely and then read and do via checklist. This memory items nonsense creates a lot of grief with many pilots since a lot of trainers simply don’t understand that “no actions below 400ft” does equal perform actions at 400ft while trying to fly perhaps with a startled first officer. And yet so many airlines still teach it this way. Those uncontained, crazy engine failures you happen to see a couple times in a decade are catastrophic events of material failures or neglected maintenance. No QRH will prepare you for that. I have never seen a 737NG where a manual gear extension will not gravity extend at least one or two struts. So again, i believe these memory items play a crucial role here. And if the wrong engine has been shutdown aka left engine, your landing gear hydraulics are gone. Pair that with a damaged right engine whose eng driven hyd pump is failing and what’s left is a single elec hyd pump. That pump gives priority to slats extension before anything else and then flt controls. That “could” explain why there is no gear extension and with an aircraft barely flying all what’s left is a 180 back onto the opposite runway. Now the sad end is the wall at the end of the runway (that should not have been built like this. Period!) giving absolutely no chance of survival for the occupants of a high impact with immediate fire. If survivable then, as we have seen before, in the tail section. Those passengers and esp. crew on jumpseats bear a chance.
ReplyDeleteMy thoughts “as an assumption, speculation, etc” Karlene, you know who i am ;) Greetings!
Okay... funny story regarding memory items, for a sad situation...
DeleteI was listening to a captain's oral. The guy knew his stuff. He could handle the thought process of what to do and what systems were working or not and how to secure a failed engine.... but, we are required to "quote" verbatim the emergency checklist memory items. He did not use the "exact" words on the checklist, but told the instructor exactly what he would do, which were the correct steps on the checklist not the correct words. The first officer instructor giving him the oral told him, "The next time you come in here you better have this memorized." There were sparks.
Now, I am most certain the guy who knows what to do, will do it. The guy who is trying to remember what to say, will probably not get it right. Just like Delta's upset recovery memory items.
So, the hypothesis is, if they shut down the wrong engine, which might have very well happened, (I suspect yes) then that may have happened because they panicked. Yet, people don't appear to like that word, so how about a synonym... they became rattled or flustered and shut down the wrong engine. I've seen it happen in the simulator and it's happened on the line before.
About the wall... I don't know what was on the other side, but if this happened in Boston, everyone in the harbor would be dead too, or in Seattle, everyone off either end of the runways would become a victim. Actually, they might have taken out the FAA building that sits south of SeaTac. I think that maybe we need to design airports with enough runway overhang for run away aircraft off the runway? Too much money, not going to happen.
Thanks for you comments and how the systems work!!!
Karlene, I am not a pilot, just an aviation enthusiast… so just let it be known at the outset that my opinion means absolutely nothing…. That said the first time I saw that video I had at least 3 WTF head scratches… I could see there were no flaps, they came in very fast,, it looked like the plane barely slowed down while going down the runway, were the engines still putting out thrust…. I assumed the gear and flaps were configured for landing when the bird strike happened… if you can get them up, getting them down shouldn’t be e an issue. So bottom line if I can figure all that out before seeing an expert commentary at very least pointing out these are the questions that need answering seems to be very fair game for an expert…
ReplyDeleteYes, all your questions need answering. But now we have no black box, and so what happens next? The discussions that should ensue should be what could we have done differently. They could have landed without one or both engines, already configured, and not had an issue. Why did they go around? Why clean up the plane? Why not turn to miss the wall. They had complete directional control because they turned and flew a pattern and landed on the centerline. Another question of how they did that if they had no hydraulics. So, you are more astute with the questions than those aviators not wanting to talk about this. That's another question... why don't they want to talk about it? Thanks for your comment.
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