More Not Less
We know what happened to the Brazilian ATR aircraft that killed 61 people. The plane was in a flat spin. What we don't know is why it happened.
Back in the 1979-80, when I was just learning to fly, the FAA had stopped requiring spin training. My instructor said that we only had to learn how to recover from a stall. I asked him if we could still do it? He was pleased to comply.
I cut the power as I pulled the nose up and the plane stalled. He then he jammed in the rudder and we spun. Did the crew of this ATR enter a stall and as one wing dropped a pilot reacted by jamming in a rudder? Did they put their aircraft into a spin? Was ice involved? Was the problem the T-tail? There are many variables and rarely, if ever, its just one thing that causes a plane to crash.
We will know that answer when the they analyze the data recently received.
This is not the fist time an ATR plane crashed. In October of 1994, American Eagle, Fight 4184, was subject to freezing rain during a holding pattern, ice built up on the wings, and during descent the plane rolled. The autopilot disengaged and the plane crashed into a filed in Indiana, killing all 68 people on board.
T-tail aircraft are a problem with ice. Was the plane heavily loaded aft? I wonder when the cost of life will out weigh the profits of operating this aircraft.
I also wonder if it was possible for them to get out of this spin once they entered. Or would this plane be unrecoverable. I posed that question to a friend and he sent me an interesting video. Beechcraft is also a twin engine T-tail aircraft, and they did spin testing. Mine spin training was in a Cessna 172.
Pilots have you received Spin Training?
While airlines and the FAA think reduced training is okay because of automation, this ideology might just be breeding an industry of pilots who lack aerodynamical skills. I am not making that claim against these pilots, I'm just curious if this is an overall problem. As my doctoral research identified, the more pilots train their performance decreases, of which is basis for Normalization of Deviance, a Threat to Aviation Safety.
Twin Spin Testing Beechcraft Twin Video
Dr. Karlene Petitt
PhD. MBA. MHS.
A350, B777, A330, B747-400, B747-200, B767, B757, B737, B727
PhD. MBA. MHS.
A350, B777, A330, B747-400, B747-200, B767, B757, B737, B727
excellent questions as we wait to find out what happened. thanks Karlene
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure if the traveling public understands a pilots need to know what happened. But, I think it helps us to learn from it. The reality is the same for the loss of those on board. Waiting is the hardest.
Delete6 February 2023
ReplyDeleteNepalese investigators probing the Yeti Airlines ATR 72-500 crash at Pokhara have disclosed that both propellers feathered just after the flying pilot asked for a further extension of the flaps.
However, it looks as if this plane was not descended to final approach, hence the crew did normally not have selected any flaps. May the crew have tried to select flaps in order to escape the flat spin? If so, is the cockpit layout of the ATR-72 confusing and can it be a valid hypotheses the intended flap selection accidentally propellers were feathered, worsening the stall.
Sorry, if this makes no sense.
Bert, that is very interesting. Do the propellers auto feather on the ATR when selecting flaps? And while at 17,000 feet and on approach, if they were slowed down on arrival would they put the flaps out at that altitude in effort to help slow? I don't know. I've seen such things in jet aircraft. Looking forward to the results of this one. Thanks for the added info.
DeleteA friend once told being a CFMEII is the most dangerous aspect of flight instruction
ReplyDeleteYour friend was a very smart human.
DeleteYes, many spins. Part of glider training is to be put into a turning dive, and work out if it's a spin or a spiral dive, then recover appropriately just on the instruments (the key is that in a spin airspeed stays steady, but in a spiral, it increases). Then again for CFI training, and yet again in aerobatics. That said, in a flat spin - well you're just toast without a drag chute. Beech Barons in particular have has a problem with flat spins if stalled with 1 engine out. I think the FAA is right to focus on stall prevention, but good pilots never stop learning, and should seek out spin training. I highly doubt that the swept wing jet I'm flying now COULD recover.
ReplyDeletePaul, that's interesting about the speed difference between the two. I had no idea. Would it be nice to go play in a simulator in yours just to see if you could survive? There was a time when they said no stalls were survivable. Then someone did it, and they started training for it.
Deleteyeah I thought of trying to spin the sim (not on motion), but since the flight model is based on actual data, and they didn't spin the Citation X in testing (to my knowledge anyway), would it be accurate? It's got a very over-sized rudder, but a 37deg swept wing in a stall, would I think be a huge liability. I can but try......
DeleteLesson learned..... Don't spin the Citation X!!!
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